Digest of Parishioner Comments

I've reproduced excerpts from parishioner comments in the continuation of this posting - click below to continue reading. Most of the comments are from postings to this blog. The remainder, which are designated as "Anonymous" (along with some of the blog postings) are from emails I received. The excerpts are reproduced in alphabetical order of the authors' names, with anonymous postings last.

"My major concern is this seems rushed. Discussing such an issue 3 days before Christmas seems odd; the parish focus should be on the celebration of the Lord's birth, not on a divisive issue like joining an arm of the Episcopal church about which most of us know little. . . . I think it is an understatement to call this a major issue. At some point the parish as a whole needs an opportunity to ask questions and give input. Perhaps instead of voting on Monday the Vestry could structure a series of question/answer sessions." --Judy Amonett

"If we could all be patient in this process, what a great reward in the end. I agree with you. Slow and steady wins the race and I am happy to be the tortoise. The issues are so large. Jumping too soon would be irreparable." -- Jennifer Tuttle Arnold.

"Mark me down as unalterably opposed to this craziness. I'm sadly to the point -- after 27 years -- of having to start looking for a new Episcopalian church to call home if this doesn't stop soon. * * * I do not see how the vestry could make such a monumentous and disruptive decision without fully informing the entire parish beforehand. And does the vestry think that those of us who disagree with this proposition should follow AAC's suggestion and 'divert' our pledges to an organization with which we do agree?" --Ann Cochran

"The bottomline for me is that I would transfer my membership and money to another church if SJD joins the AAC. We might keep going to SJD but our affiliation wouldn't stay there." --Anonymous

"AAC acknowledges that it has known for several months that its list of member parishes is not accurate, yet it continues to list SJD as a member. These types of misleading and deceptive practices are not appropriate for a religious organization or any other organization for that matter, and do not reflect the values of SJD. We should not lend our good name or support to an organization that does not debate the issues honestly and accurately. . . . If the leadership of SJD is leading the Parish away from the Episcopal Church, we would consider it a breach of faith and would be forced to look elsewhere for an Episcopal home." --Tres Cochran

"Based on what I understand of this issue, our bishop's position, and what I thought was Larry's position I would not vote for St Johns to separate from the ECUSA now. I very possibly could in the future but why do we need to hurry. Once done, I assume there will be no turning back." --Bill Donovan

"I agree with you! Let's love God with all our heart, all our soul, all our mind, and all our strength, and love our neighbors as ourselves (Mark 12:30-31), and feed the hungry, slake the thirsty, welcome the strangers, clothe the naked, care for the ailing, and visit the prisoners (Matthew 25:34-40, paraphrased)!" -- Randy Furlong

"Please give Bishop Wimberly and the Diocese of Texas time for some healthy dialogue, within the diocese, between our and other dioceses, and with the National Episcopal Church leadership. . . . It saddens me to consider that it (SJD) may choose, by joining AAC at this time, to play a leading role in promoting what can only be called a schism in the Episcopal Church. I pray that if we choose not to lead in trying to find a way to hold ECUSA together, we at least delay joining forces with those (AAC) who would rend it asunder. Please wait at least until those within the diocese and parish who do have the heart to work for unity have had some time to give it a try. I respectfully suggest a delay (in joining AAC if that is indeed your 'best' response to this situation) of no less than 9 months unless Bishop Wimberly or the Diocese of Texas takes or calls for similar action sooner." --Jim Greenwood

"I think St. John's needs a lot more discussion with and information for the congregation before any action is taken. I am leaning toward Larry's position but don't know enough about the alternatives to make a decision at this time." --Chuck Guffey

"DC I agree 100% with Larry. PB Griswald and the convention do not preach the same gospel that I believe to be the WORD of GOD. The Holy Spirit does not change the WORD of GOD but reinforces it. Its time for the Church to repent and rid itself of the false teachers." --Tony Listi

"One view in our church has been most vocal over the past few months, and I wanted to let you know that there are members of the congregation who do not share that view. . . . I am an Episcopalian, not an Anglican. I reject the premise that we should be persuaded into aligning our thoughts with 70 million people of the Anglican Communion. The Episcopal Church Welcomes You, if it were put to a popular vote, it would be changed to, The Anglican Church Welcomes Most of You." --Will Symmes

"I am appalled that Bishop Robinson is given the ecumenical responsibility of a bishop in view of his personal behavior and how that fails to parse with what I understand our church's teachings to be. . . . As for the direction of our congregation, I joined Church of St. John the Divine because of my trust and confidence and complete faith in Larry Hall as its spiritual leader and minister. I have no reason to doubt the validity of my decision made many years ago. Larry sets the standard for St. John's. If I felt that he did not, it would be my obligation to find another congregation with a minister that I could follow. I would urge that your responsibility as a member of the vestry is to support our minister in matters spiritual, as he relies upon you as a member of the vestry for your knowledge, skill and experience to keep the church facilities open and operating. If you are not able to support Larry, then I consider it your duty, your obligation, to resign immediately. It is not your duty to take issue with him on matters spiritual. If you do, indeed, find yourself unable to accept Larry's direction, I very much hope that you will not take any action against him or the position he espouses but will withdraw from our congregation and find another which meets with your approval." --Tracy Walne

"I agree with you 100%. I feel very much in the minority when I speak with other church members on this topic, and I appreciate the opportunity to post a comment." --Kathryn Hall Wilson

"D.C., I know you asked for posted emails, but I just wanted to send a quick response. I agree with you. I would vote against it. To be honest, [spouse] and I have started to explore other church options. Look forward to seeing you soon." --Anonymous

"The issue is whether the church should ordain clergy who go against Christ's teachings. Jesus told the woman at the well who had lived with 5 different men to go and sin no more; he did not accept it as an alternative lifestyle. Jesus said how can you call me Lord but don't do what I say?" --Anonymous

"Someone else (Pilate)in the bible once asked Jesus the question... " What is Truth?". Jesus answered "I am the Truth and the Light. Any who believe in my shall have everlasting light." Jesus did not say "let's be open and discuss what you think...." --Anonymous

"As a person who left his wife and children, moved in with a man, lives with this man, and continues to do so...how can he be consecrated if the vows that he took, he breaks every day?" --Anonymous

"Fundamentalism and literalism are what Jesus spent most of his time on earth preaching about to the Pharisees and Sadducees, the religious leaders of his day. Who are the the Pharisees and the Sadducees today? The Larry Halls and of the world. Fundamentalists and literalists forget that Jesus did not come only for white conservative Americans. He came for all people. Straight. Gay. White. Black. Rich. Poor." --Anonymous

"I . . . agree whole heartedly that we should join the AAC. I personally cannot stay in union with our presiding bishop who has chosen to go his own way and turn from hundreds of years of orthodoxy. If I don't stand for my beliefs and faith WHO will...SJD is a strong conservative, traditional church and we SHOULD be at the forefront of standing for truth as handed down in Scripture, tradition and reason." --Anonymous

"I do not believe that the Episcopal Church should be revising its fundamental beliefs in response to contemporary social pressures. It is the Episcopal Church leadership that has moved away from orthodox Episcopalian beliefs, as espoused in the Scriptures and reinforced through a couple of thousand years of Episcopal Church teachings, rather than the congregations moving away from their leaders. The fact that our current church leaders espouse a contemporary, 'politically correct' view on gay rights has little influence on my thinking. I believe it is a mistake to allow one's contemporary social and political beliefs to override one's fundamental religious beliefs." --Anonymous

Comments

[John Cain]

I favor aligning ourselves with the AAC and other conservative, biblically grounded churches. If the ECUSA's leaders choose to continue to take actions that cause them to break communion with us, so be it. I am upset, but I am not willing to water down my beliefs to fit their agenda. I do not consider the act of aligning ourselves with the AAC to be affirmatively "leaving" the traditional Episcopal church or the Anglican Communion.

As for the homosexual issue, sex outside of the covenant of marriage is sin. As a church, we minister to and love sinners but abhor the sin. Lay leaders & teachers, priests and bishops are called to a higher standard than the average pew sitter. Those practicing sex outside of marriage are no more qualified to hold such a position than a practicing alcoholic, a practicing verbal abuser, a practicing adulterer, a practicing thief, etc.

D.C.,

Please include the email we sent you today in this digest.

Joe Pagnotto

[Lana Short]

D.C.,

I have not had nor taken the time to respond to your dialogue on joining the AAC. So, this may be too late for your summary or consideration for tonight's meeting.

I am a personal member of the AAC and have advocated that SJD affiliate with them for a number of years. I thought it was a better way for us to go than the First Promise (now AMIA) which Larry and several priests did here.

The AAC is prayerful and balanced and (like you are giving a forum and a voice for those who disagree with affiliating with AAC) has given a forum and a voice to those parishes and dioceses who have not been traveling down the same path as the leadership of ECUSA for several years.

The AAC has held fast to the beliefs of the orthodox and traditional faith and has shown that the revisionists are the ones that have left, not the other way around. I see nothing in their literature that advocates pulling out. I think aligning ourselves with them gives us strength and structure to our voice.

For years I have not wanted our Episcopal Church to break up. I still do not. But when the church looks more like the world than it holds a standard which of God and His desire for our life in Him, I can no longer say "well, let's just talk it out and set up another study" as a means to delay the inevitable clash of values.

Just as you mentioned bibliolatry I think there's a tendency for us to make our church (buildings and organizations) our idol. For me, I must ask the question: Who do I follow? The church or the teachings of Jesus the Christ? It should be one and the same, but with ECUSA, I'm sad to say it's not the case.

FYI. I do not believe the homosexual lifestyle is one God wants anyone to live. He clearly wants us all to live sexually pure lives...that's very clear. Contrary to what Will Symmes said, science has NOT proved that one is born homosexual. I believe it is a complex set of environmental, and psychological factors that make one follow a lifestyle of attraction to the same rather than other.

There's not time to deliberate all of that here, but I will share with you that my brother died of AIDS in 1990 and he shared much with me his last year of life. He felt that his choices were wrong and that God did not want him to live the life he had chosen which killed him. He received God's full forgiveness and I KNOW he is with Jesus as I write this. He died being loved fully by his family and would not have wanted his "sin" blessed. My beliefs about this issue have been shaped by his life, death, and God's design and plan for our lives.

I pray for all of you who wrestle with decisions facing our church now and in the future.

Blessings,

Lana

(Posted by DCT at Lana's request)

[Carole & Joe Pagnotto]

D.C.,

Thank you for this e-mail. Until its receipt, we were unaware of your web log. Since then we have read most of your postings and have felt the need to reply in however a cursory manner to the cases presented therein.

Because we are briefly addressing a number of postings, we are responding in the form of a reply to the message below.

A primary concern is the proposal that the American Anglican Council is "laying the groundwork for schism" within the Episcopal Church. To the contrary, it would seem that the Episcopal Church was schismatic when its General Convention blessed same sex unions and approved election of a practicing homosexual to a bishop's seat in defiance of prohibitions beginning in Genesis (19:4-25) and continuing through Romans (1:18-32), !st Corinthians (6:9.18-20) and--for Anglicans--at Lambeth.

As believers in Biblical Christianity, the AAC has no choice but to join the rest of the Anglican Communion in protest and to act accordingly.

The most obvious way to justify the Convention's actions is to recast the Bible as something less than the infallible word of God. This can be done by pointing to what appear to be inconsistencies in the Scriptures, particularly those of the New Testament.

Since the Gospels were written considerably after the Crucifixion and since Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John each had his own noncompeting view of Jesus, some details can appear to be inconsistent with each other. None, however, is inconsistent with the Resurrection, the defining proof of Jesus's claims about Himself, and with the message of salvation through Jesus Christ.

When measured against the truth of this fact and the message itself, claimed "internal inconsistencies" and questions of manuscript reliability take a definite back seat the power and truth of Christ's teachings. These teachings and their amplification in the rest of the New Testament are in fact "core Christianity," not "profession of the Episcopal baptismal rite, including the Apostles Creed." Their validity, perhaps even more than the documentation of Jesus's supernatural powers, confirm his claim to be the Son of God in a way that inclusive of the Godhead and not relational as in "sons of thunder," "Abraham," etc.

Another way to undermine the authority of the Bible is to portray it as an evolving document. God can thus destroy the city of Sodom because of its homosexual practices and thousands of years later decide that same sex unions and actively gay bishops are permissible. Accordingly, His word can be revised to keep up with the times.

The problem, of course, is that the word of God can now be changed at the whims of those who are supposed to be governed by it thereby creating a rather fickle deity ruled by the times rather than being in control of them.

Some may be comfortable with a god whose word is changable and whose biblical interpretation needs continuing revision to accomodate the latest whims of man--e.g. the blessing of same sex unions and consecration of gay bishops. We believe with that such a view can only hasten the destruction of our society whose foundations were laid by believers in in a God whose unchanging word is recorded in the Bible, the touchstone against which the plans and actions of man must be measured.

The Episcopal Church in its General Convention has strayed so far from God and His word as described in Psalm 119:89-91 that its recent actions bring us back through the centuries to a time when Martin Luther nailed his theses to the door of Wittenburg's cathedral. We ferverently pray that the Episcopal Church ends its schismatic activity through repenting and renouncing its decisions and thereby return to the Anglican Communion. Otherwise, we endorse without reservation any move St. John the Divine takes in sympathy and/or affiliation with the American Anglican Council.

Carole and Joe Pagnotto

(Posted by DCT at Joe's request)

[Bob Nimocks]

Does any one have any thoughts on new churches? We intend to begin an earnest search and welcome any input. Would also welcome the chance to join one with a group who has a made a thorough examination and shares a common heritage. What about Palmer or Christ Church?
Bob Nimocks